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What is the status of BBC Radio 2
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje October 2011
    Six months ago BBC Radio 2 opened a pitch for jingle producers for the production of the new overall station sound. Does anyone know what the status is right now? I haven't heard anything since... I had e-mail contact with one of the BBC-guys involved with the project, but he couldn't tell a thing... I am very curious, like you might be!
  • mbmb October 2011
    Still in progress.
  • upsweepupsweep October 2011
    got to say i love the additions from GrooveWorx earlier this year, pity the site only has the dj cuts
  • LenGroatLenGroat October 2011
    This is a topical post ! The 'ERadio' Newsletter today 'fanfares':

    'The Radio Festival 2011' - in Salford (the new London)

    With a session on 'Jingles & Imaging'

    "Is having the right imaging as important as getting the playlists, presenters and marketing right for a station? Capital Yorkshire's Simon Hirst enlists the help of Sandy Beech from Music4 and Radio 2's Chris Reay to talk jingles. We're promised the creation of a jingle during the session too - with singers on standby in a studio to perform it!"

    So one of the 'experts' is Radio 2's Chris Reay from the station that had to issue a complex brief, give a closing date of April, yet STILL NO NEW JINGLES! This is 'radio political correctness' gone MAD, and I fear we all know WHAT they wil sound like when they do appear!

    I hope the singers for the live session are already practicing their 'ooh ahh oohs' ! And will they be JINGLE singers, or just 'singers' who are used on station idents?

    Interstingly, the 'ERadio' Newsletter' acknowledges US - and has a dig back !

    "JINGLE MAD? The anorak-tastic site JingleMad.com has had a make-over. After some trouble it now looks very inviting and has the usual various discussions about JAM Jingles"

    At least the Newsletter authors know WHICH is the jingle company MOST people think of F I R S T.

    J A M

    So.. come on Radio 2, eat humble pie, call Jon Wolfert... and get the station to SOUND as good as it did for many years !!

    Len (anorak-tastic) Groat - now (Trent Sound) www.trentsound.com
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje October 2011
    Len I agree on a lot of points you have to tell my friend, but we must not forget that the talents of other production companies also put a lot of effort and love and care in their products. They are not there to make jingles sound bad, they just have a different philosophy about how jingles should sound and work on air.

    If we agree jingles are an important part of a station sound and therefore of its succes, we should also admit that a lot of stations NOT using JAM are market leader...

    I am still a big fan of JAM's big full well produced orchestral vocal and instrumental sound though.
  • simon_t123simon_t123 October 2011
    I'm with Marc for sure ... tho' I share Len & every JAM lovers love for the product :)

    I think it's called 'evolution' what worked for R2 for many years, may well not work the same in this day & age ? JAM was the #1 choice for jingles for many years, before that companies such as PAMS led the way, I think however that evolution saw PAMS give way to JAM and JAM give way to others. In the same sense Reelworld is far less prolific in the UK than they used to be, Grooveworx & Music4 too, far less on-air in the UK now, these companies had their turn at the top over the last decade (almost 2) And things still evolve to this day, Brandy imaging = REALLY good, Top Format's production of their own packages rather than JAM re-sings - REALLY good, Ignite and many more companies sounding good right now !!!

    I've always considered that JAM will become what PAMS has been to us for a while now, a reputable, quality company / product for covering oldies & classic hits formats, JAM has tried new things but in my opinion has not truly evolved within itself to encompass the sound that stations actually want, I know we love JAM and I don't doubt they go the extra miles with custom projects and resings, we know who they are, what they've done and what they're good at :) I would not want to knock JAM !!! But to me they shine with their back catalogue of truly fantastic packages, just as PAMS still does to this day ... I'm not a huge fan of the more recent JAM material, the vocals are silky smooth yes, but programmers don't appear to be wanting that sound. I just don't think they evolved in the way for instance TM Studios has, from classic packages of the 70's and 80's similar to the JAM sound to the 90's synth led packages (LA's #1 Hit Music Station etc) to the recent years with 'The Bee' 'Kingdom FM' 'TFM' and the whole association with Lighthouse and Kissville products, plus Studio Dragonfly & iJingles products, I think TM have evolved keeping pace with the market, does anyone share that view ?

    And tomorrow ... or next week, another jingle company will emerge doing something slightly different !!! We'll still love PAMS for PAMS, JAM for JAM and so on, but for a station as big & popular as R2 (and one that does not want to appear as MOR as it used to do Zzzzz !!!) I think the sound they need must evolve too, Wise Buddah and Grooveworx have helped R2 to do that since '97, it will be interesting to see who wins the pitch to produce new R2 material, but my money (£1 at most !) would be on either WB or Grooveworx continuing the evolution for R2 :)

    ... better that than another Mcasso !!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje October 2011
    Simon I really agree with you on your very good analysis of the jingle market. IMO programmers tend to ask more for 'musically alike' imaging (based on the playlist) instead of 'real jingles' (big brass, big vocals, violins, the old metropole sound).

    Like mentioned in the other post, Sky Radio changed from a 23 year JAM-heritage to Wisebuddah, but the station really doesn't sound that bad with its new jingles, it sounds... more modern.

    As I always understood out of the words of Jonathan Wolfert, JAM could make anything as long as the briefing of the station is clear. What briefing did WJXA/Mix92.9 gave to Reelworld with their first package (a Landmark package I think)? And would JAM really have created exactly the same sound?

    I think besides radio stations, jingle companies too have their own 'signature sound'. And when the taste of radio makers can change, the succes of any production company can too...
  • mjb1124mjb1124 October 2011
    It's honestly tough to say what type of sound JAM would produce if they were asked to make something totally modernized. Perhaps they are not being challenged enough. It seems like programmers go to JAM when they want that classic "Dallas" sound, while they go to other producers for something more contemporary. Recent AC packages like Up2date have more modern instrumentation, but still have that familiar vocal sound which - for better or worse - is not "in" right now. The 2011 KOST package sounds great on that station, but I can't imagine a station like WLTW or WLIT using it.

    The only package we've seen in recent memory that really broke from the classic sound was the Fresh 102.7 package, which did sound "fresh" in 2007, but perhaps is too mellow for where AC radio is going now. Similarly, the last real top 40 package they did was Pro Choice, which I thought sounded perfectly up-to-date for its time, but that was nearly a decade ago. We can't even say what a 2011 JAM top 40 package would sound like, because nobody's asked them produce one. Sometimes I wish they'd just put something out there, but I know that's not how their business model works.

    There is still something to be said for the vocal and musical quality of JAM jingles, and I think they'd be able to retain that while trying new sounds. I don't believe that sounding current means having high-pitched female singers screaming call letters in your face, over tracks that are drowned in echo and effects. While AC stations are adding more contemporary rhythmic pop music than ever, much of it is still more musical and has better vocals and production values than your typical (and ubiquitious in the US) Reelworld AC jingle. That said, I do think that some European companies (Wise Buddah, Brandy, Top Format) come up with quality material, as do other Dallas companies like TM and Radioscape. And I'll admit that Reelworld's jingles work for CHR, Rhythmic, and Hot AC stations. But still, nothing tops JAM for me, and I would love to see more stations approach them and guide them towards new sounds.
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje October 2011
    I agree MJB. But there are much more pop rock sounding packages from JAM that sound modern like MasterMix (KWMX Denver), Heartbeat (London's Heart 106.2); BBC Radio 1 or Hot Wired for DRQ...
  • Good+Time+OldieGood Time Oldie October 2011
    Here we go again , if you're not JAM, you're not worthy.

    I agree with both Simon and MJB - "every dog has it's day" and things move on, although JAM will always be "the first choice" for most people, and quite rightly so given their very high production and vocal values. However, that doesn't mean other companies shouldn't have a pop at things, Radioscape springs to mind, okay it uses the same singers as JAM but Johnny Hooper is one talented guy and could nail the Radio 2 gig easily.

    I have heard the Groovewox pitch for Radio 2 and I personally thought the cuts were great, but we all know that "one Man's Steak is another Man's Mince", so not sure what the rest on here would think of them. The guys at Grooveworx are very busy at the moment but have started work on their website, granted it's only the "archive" stuff at the moment but they planned to put the Radio 2 pitch up there soon.
  • LenGroatLenGroat October 2011
    I'm pleased my post solicited such a broad response of replies - thank you.

    Of course there will always be the JAM flag wavers' like myself, but no one has really responded to my point about HOW Radio 2 are going about this :

    "So one of the 'experts' is Radio 2's Chris Reay from the station that had to issue a complex brief, give a closing date of April, yet STILL NO NEW JINGLES! This is 'radio political correctness' gone MAD, and I fear we all know WHAT they wil sound like when they do appear!

    In an effort to 'be seen to save money' Radio 2's staff are spending many MONTHS more than we used to spend in the 80s to actually CREATE packages from scratch (such as Trent 8)

    ANY savings made under this system are surely wiped out by the COST of members of staff going through this process so not able to 'work' on anythng else.

    And will the product REALLY SOUND any better for the months of "jingle gestation"?

    The BBC is grossly over-staffed, and gives 'jobs for life' to people who would not survive ten minutes in commercial radio, so Radio 2 should 'get its act together' over these jingles, and stop wasting licence payer's money !
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje October 2011
    Len, I see what you mean. I think this is an organisation 'problem' for a lot of companies world wide... A lot of people in 'management' are just busy keeping their jobs instead of doing a job, while creative people with passion for their work are being frustrated by this management layer.... Let's hope this culture will change soon!
  • mbmb October 2011
    With the greatest of respect Len, I feel that your comments are unfair. The world of the BBC has changed - as it has at corporate level in every major corporation. Like it or not decisions are now very much based on procurement teams and proceedures across marketing and this INCLUDES jingles. As we have discussed the way the BBC has decided to move forward with imaging is to have BBC worldwide commission the packages and act as publisher therefore saving the corporation Millions in fees. We can argue if this is right or wrong but the controller of Radio 2 can't just go to his preferred company and buy the package he wants. There has to be a fair commissioning process and BBC worldwide have to negotiate the terms. as you know this is not the regular model on which jingles are produced and therefore in order to ensure it is done RIGHT I would suspect the team at Radio 2 are working hard to ensure that the quality they need is delivered against very tight financials from BCC worldwide. The current jingles are working well and Radio 2 is doing well so there is no deadline to be met other than one of getting the right product at the right price on the right deal.
  • mjb1124mjb1124 October 2011

    I agree MJB. But there are much more pop rock sounding packages from JAM that sound modern like MasterMix (KWMX Denver), Heartbeat (London's Heart 106.2); BBC Radio 1 or Hot Wired for DRQ...



    True... but those are all more than a decade old. Seems like nobody has asked JAM to do anything like that in the last 5 years, aside from maybe Fresh 102.7. I could see some AC stations using Hot Wired though, as there has been a trend towards using old CHR packages.

    Anyway, I have confidence that the end result of this will be a fine jingle package for Radio 2. I certainly hope JAM and the other Dallas companies are in contention, but at the same time, we have to keep our minds open for newer players in the game.
  • timbotimbo October 2011
    LenGroat said:


    The BBC is grossly over-staffed, and gives 'jobs for life' to people who would not survive ten minutes in commercial radio, so Radio 2 should 'get its act together' over these jingles, and stop wasting licence payer's money !



    Ouch! Unfair....
  • BarrasBarras October 2011
    Just read all of this thread and thumbs up to everyone who has posted, really interesting comments, however, as far as Radio 2 goes, I`m being the one-word man....

    JAM
  • upsweepupsweep October 2011
    i wonder if the new package when / if introduced we have the current strapeline i have noticed over the tlast few weeks in their recent advertising "More 2 it"
  • simon_t123simon_t123 October 2011
    When the 1997 Groove package went on air the stations strapline was "different every time" of course straplines can come and go before life expiry of a jingle package, I never really liked the fact R2 soon dumped all the cuts that sung the strapline in favour of ramp only versions ... As upsweep says they could use "more 2 it" as a strapline on new jingles, but for how long might they use such a strapline ? It just sems to cheapen the deal when the strapline gets dumped and the jingles are made blander as as a result !

    Possibly the way to go is talk up ramps and stagers that sing just "R2" or "BBC R2" voice-overs can fulfil the stations current strapline requirements ...

    This has proved to be an interesting debate from all angles, Len's comments pro-Jam are entirely fair, everyone has their own tastes and requirements, it shows through this thread that us Jinglemad'ers are in touch with the way things are, the market and the players, we're passionate (dare I suggest MORE passionate than the 'suits' and procurement departments ?) about jingles & imaging, and we should be really proud of all that !!! Perhaps we can collectively become imaging consultants ...

    Come to us programmers ... Jinglemad Ltd !!!!
  • mbmb October 2011
    I know that the station took a positive decision NOT to wrap itself around an on air strap line other than On Line, On Digital and on 88 to 91 FM to differentiate itself in the market. Commercial radio has become obsessed with More Music Variety, Number 1 Hit music station, The Best Music etc and so often that promise is broken. How many listeners actually believe Heart has More Music Variety just because they say it. Also presenters basically seem to revolve around using the strap line every mention. With the line up on Radio 2 its about the presenters and a strapline is clutter the station doesnt need. The differentiation is that it has no onair strapline it is simply Radio 2.

    The More to it and other lines are primarily used in off air ATL promotion and maybe in supporting on air promos but are not designed to be part of on air identification. Whilst I love to hear a good strap line I tend to agree that the station hasn't suffered from not having a strapline and is able to be more flexible with imaging not stuck to a phrase that quickly becomes tiresome. Hence you hear more name check jingles and most new presenters get a name jingle as the name and Radio 2 are what the station want to identify. I personally love the Paul O'Grady, Simon Mayo and Pick of the Pops jingles - Jingles for individual shows with an individual style.

    I would suspect that the new jingles ( given the brief ) will be designed around Music Styles & Presenter names rather than an individual strap line. I know the styles of jingles I like and would want to hear but the team at Radio 2 are very expereinced & held in high regard. Just because they make make decision that we as armchair image experts would make does not make them wrong.
  • GrahamCollinsGrahamCollins October 2011
    Spending any of the restrictive BBC budget on new imaging on R2 will be hard to justify. The current package has lasted nearly 15 years with a few updates and I'm sure the audience doesn't really care - jingles, in the true sense are not part of the format. Very few presenters use what is available and specialist shows are imaged outside of any 'station sound' anyway. As we all know Steve Wright has his own personal imaging package that is part of the deal.

    Radio 2 has a distinctive sound without the need for any clever imaging. MB makes the point very well that no strapline is flexible and different in itself.

    So whilst my heart says yes what a nice idea and it will be good to discuss new jingles here I'm not sure I would notice much difference on air (unless they went for JAM). All they should do is update the news in and travel bed. Er, actually I've just been told they've already done this.......
  • LenGroatLenGroat October 2011
    This topic is interesting as it has now drawn attention to the fact that many of the Radio 2 shows are 'farmed out' and bear no relationship to any (attempted) 'station style' particularly clear on breakfast and afternoons.

    The 'personality or 'ego' (take your pick) of Evans and Wright dominate over any recognisable station style - including their choice of jingles - one reason they do not do the obvious of using Wright to fill-in on breakfast but bring in disastorous combinations of 'personailtes' from outside radio ?

    Chalks: "Very few presenters use what is available and specialist shows are imaged outside of any 'station sound' "

    Surely this is a 'chicken or egg' situation?

    In the 'JAM days' a lot MORE jingles were played as they were more usable? The current package is (mainly) not jingles but ramps/intros, or over-long jingles that do not 'work' well with the music.

    It's been on for SO MANY YEARS the presenters have forgotten HOW to use proper 'jingles'.

    As regards 'specialist shows are imaged outside of any station sound' that would seem to be the MAJORITY of the output?

    The Breakfast jingles, PAMS on Pick of the Pops, Steve Wright's programme jingles... bear no relationship style-wise to the rest of Radio 2

    MB "Like it or not decisions are now very much based on procurement teams and proceedures across marketing and this INCLUDES jingles"

    But that cannot apply to the examples I've given? It does not seem Evans, Wright, Tony Blackburn spend MONTHS following any 'procurement team' they seem to be autonomous - the PAMS jingles were ordered and recorded in a VERY short space of time?

    Len

    The discussion continues.... the 'procurement' drags on, and the station loses any corporate direction...
  • mbmb October 2011
    I don’t think we can compare the Radio 2 of now and the radio market place to Radio 2 in the Mid 80’s. Radio 2 is not a music station it’s a personality station. And unlike Heart where identikit presenters read “powerlinks” and created to be bland faceless bridges between ads Radio 2 is where you will find an eclectic mix of presenters and styles.
    The station is big enough not to have to rely on strap lines and a standardised sound throughout the day. People have said it’s a miss match of jingles and styles but I bet everyone can hum you the news intro or sing you Radio 2. Several shows have their own flavour and style but does that make the listening experience any lesser? In the case of people like Wright and Blackburn what is the point of employing them if you can’t give them a bit of a free hand. In many cases the jingles where possible are designed around the presenter to suit their personality and style. Paul O’Grady is a big Avengers fan and has a jingle that suits his personality and tips a hat to the Avengers themes. Simon Mayo had a recreation of his Radio 1 jingle.

    Even when Radio 2 shows are independently produced they have to work with the station sound team, they can’t just air whatever they like. I don’t think any shows are imaged “outside” of the station sound team.

    Individual pieces or bits and pieces of course would not go through the full commissioning cycle but new packages costing tens of thousands of pounds MUST – Especially as there is no choice now. They are being paid for by BBC Worldwide NOT Radio 2. That’s the formula because the BBC will save money by being publisher. Ask Music 4 how they made all their money….That’s why the BBC took the process in house it allows the organisation to benefit from the jingles being played not costing them. Ultimately this will mean that they can play more jingles !!!!

    Who knows someone ask the panel next week – they might ditch jingles and go for Sweepers. Heart, Capital, Bauer all have jingles, Maybe the new package will be like the Radio 1 groove addicts first package and dispense with musical ditties!!!!!
    Clear out all the Steve Wright, Evans, Blackburn jingles and go for chilled out Philippa Collins sweepers!!!!
  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje November 2011
    Thanks MB. In The Netherlands we don't have a station like BBC Radio 2 but looking at the ratings some might wish we had...
  • simon_t123simon_t123 November 2011
    Imaging on the big 'NL' stations has always interested me (MarcMannetje) now you mention it, the national public networks and the way they are run by a number of different producers makes for an interesting read on Wikipedia ! The imaging over the years seems to vary within one station but per production company, I'm sure this has lead to sometimes different styles, straplines and logos in use on networks at the same time ?

    Back to the R2 imaging subject, it's a (mainly BIG) personality led radio station, and whereas some stations would direct jocks to emphasise the station first and themselves second or someway down the list ! I think the reverse is true for R2, so it seems suitable that many of the personality fronted programmes have more unique show openers and imaging, the concept of having such fits more with what they are trying to do I think. As for Steve Wright, well he always came with his own jingles anyway !!! R2 wanted, or at least succeeded in capturing the essence of his whole R1 afternoon offering, complete with his own jingles, and from what I've always read that seems to have worked for them over the years. Tony Blackburn, Johnny Walker etc have more specialist shows, the theme is more the genre of music than the jock playing it so again it seems sensible that R2 provide these shows with imaging that suits what they're trying to do ... I'm not a regular R2 listener mind so my opinion is purely from a jingle perspective but of course knowing how the jingles in question are being used.

    Perhaps WB or Grooveworx would best be suited to pick up the new imaging contract for R2, I say that because the good, the bad and ugly of custom show openers from those producers in recent years can continue to be used (as they promote the personality or show) alongside perhaps a new, slimmed down, simpler package of ramps and ID's made just for the station. Cost wise Mr Blackburn's 'Pick Of The Pops' ID is not very old and some life needs to be had from the purchase there ;)
  • TheBigCheeseTheBigCheese November 2011
    what is corporate direction? Would it be wrong to suggest that with such huge ratings (14.3 million listeners?), is may not be a priority as to whether the jingles need refreshing. I'd gamble that most of the listeners would prefer things to stay just as they are?
  • LenGroatLenGroat November 2011
    Two points in this topic worth noting:

    Marc: "A lot of people in 'management' are just busy keeping their jobs instead of doing a job, while creative people with passion for their work are being frustrated by this management layer"

    Simon : ".. us Jinglemad'ers are in touch with the way things are, the market and the players, we're passionate (dare I suggest MORE passionate than the 'suits' and procurement departments ?) about jingles & imaging, and we should be really proud of all that !!! Perhaps we can collectively become imaging consultants ... "

    As I stated, remember the COST of all this 'procurement'

    Also ask WHY 'BBC Worldwide' is allowed to re-sell 'world wide' the product that the TAX PAYERS of Britan have ALREADY paid for !?

    I stick by my statement "The BBC is grossly over-staffed" but fear the impending changes will see many of the WRONG people leaving or having less work- but the local stations indeed need a shake-up.

    And the bottom line... is that Heart, Smooth, Real, et al are all so mundanely progammed for 'short attention span' listeners that Radio 2 has LITTLE competiton ~ so of course it's got a big audience!

    Len
  • ratnobratnob November 2011
    Fascinating: thanks, Frank.
    It led me to listen to Grooveworx Q102 cuts. All that shouting of the "Q" strikes me as hilariously naff:
    http://www.grooveworx.com/jingles/wkrq/
  • GrahamCollinsGrahamCollins November 2011
    Thank you Frank - unbelievable really. What a waste of effort. Groove didn't read the criteria for order did they...... Can't say I liked what I heard but they were different. The more I think about this the more I realise it is all flawed. What is the point of a station package that allows so many shows to vary from it? Radio 2 should (and probably will) continue to buy from the pick n' mix counter.....
  • m_hodgeym_hodgey November 2011
    frank said:


    Thanks for the pointer Frank.

    I haven't had chance to listen to the cuts myself yet, but the blurb about the new package on the GrooveWorx website makes interesting reading:

    After providing most of the radio branding ids for BBC Radio 2 since 1997, GrooveWorx was notified that Radio 2 would be putting their imaging station sound package out for bid in January, 2011. After much discussion internally, we decided to submit demos for the pitch. We submitted in mid February along with countless other industry companies. In June we were contacted by Radio 2 and asked to produce the new package for Radio 2. This was quite a compliment and reinforced our belief that we create some of the best radio imaging on the planet. We were however unable to come to terms with the BBC's latest demand that we sign over 100% of the publishing to them on the new work. Not sure who will end up producing the next Radio 2 package, but it won't be GrooveWorx. We were able to work out the details that will grant them the right to continue to incorporate our Heritage Melody logo that we created back in 1997, for use in the next Radio 2 package. We are very proud of the work we have produced for Radio 2 over the last fifteen years and wish that we could have continued to do so for fifteen more, but at least our Heritage Melody logo will remain on the air.



    Chalks said:

    Thank you Frank - unbelievable really. What a waste of effort. Groove didn't read the criteria for order did they......



    Yeah, they missed the bit about handing over 100% publishing rights to the BBC!

    So the cuts showcased on the GrooveWorx site are just those that were pitched in February and GrooveWorx have declared themselves out of the running due to the BBC's demand for 100% publishing rights, but have agreed a deal for the heritage logo to be used by another.

    The story contiinues.............





  • MarcMannetjeMarcMannetje November 2011
    @Mark and Frank very interesting!

    This poor 'musical quality' is by the way normal for a pitch, it is done with less instruments and mixing hours to keep the costs as low as possible, of course.

    I am very curious with production house WILL give the publishing rights to the BBC.
  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    So these go into the BBC wastebin along with the TM Productions audition from some years back.

    Believe it or not - I actually LIKE many of the "prototype" cuts - the range of instrumentation, sound textures and vocal styles IS excellent. A few duds, but clearly if it had gone ahead this package WOULD have worked well for Radio 2's very wide range of mainstream and eclectic programming.

    As for the "failing to read the brief" about the publishing rights - I would suspect they new perfectly well what was being asked - and probably thought the Beeb were being silly beggars and tried to call BBC Worldwide's bluff. All credit to Grooveworx for standing their ground and upholding their right to retain their creative intellectual property (if British Airways wanted a new airliner, would Boeing or EADS sign-over 100% of all future production rights of the plane to BA - not bl&&dy likely!)

    No doubt the "bean-counters" and the Jingle-PC Brigade will win - and a M(e)cCa(nn)o equivalent will eventually step into the breach (or an "old pals act" deal will be done).

    Although I do still hope to be pleasantly proved otherwise...
  • LenGroatLenGroat November 2011
    Phewwww !

    That was a close one..

    In this case the 'politics of radio' have saved Radio 2 from sounding like a BBC Local station in 1977 ...

    I can only imagine what Sir Terry would have said if he'd had anything as dreary 'ooh yyeaaahh' like 'yyeahh oooh' this presented to him..

    And how good that GrooveWorx have spitefully posted their (awful) demos and acidic response to the financial deal !

    But WHY does the BBC have 'double standards'?

    WHO was getting the PRS /publishing rights for the Chris Moyles indulgent EIGHT MINUTE long song on Radio 1 for the last few years?
  • petewilsonpetewilson November 2011
    Hey I wouldn't mind hearing "the countless other Industry Companies" who submitted Demo's!
    Hey Jon any chance of hearing the JAM Demo? ;-)
  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    If its "countless", can Jingles Factory or East Anglian Productions let us hear if they did any demos too? :-j

    (or at least I think to hear if/what TM Studios or JAM may have submitted WOULD be particularly interesting - AND if Freeway Paris might have had a look at the project).
  • upsweepupsweep November 2011
    I gotta say - just listened to the projected 2011 cuts, can't say they instantly grab me at first, but like all times you have to hear how they sound on-air for the impact, i actually prefered the 2010 add-ons to these. But I am quite gutted because I think Groove has provided the station with a new image when it needed it most during its transisition in the 90s.

    Pity that GrooveWorx - now does not put the back catalogue for the station FOR PUBLIC DISPLAY, particularily as they say they are proud of the 15 year heritage

    At least we know the project is being undertaken and a new package is on the cards, though like already picked up here the Groove logo will get passed on to whoever gets the nod - my hunch is WB
  • Good+Time+OldieGood Time Oldie November 2011
    Amen Iain to your initial comments.

    This just in....

    Suspense over regarding the future Jingles/imaging for Radio 2, My contact on the "inside" (that's the BBC and not Strangeways) told me this morning that the gig has been awarded to Manchester Mix -WHOOPEE!!!
  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    "Manchester Mix"
    Damn! I was hoping that Evans & Martin would have got it! :-((

    "# BBC Radio 2 - the Fron--tal Sound! #" :-D

    Actually, if its now the SAME amount of time SINCE GWx declined "the Poisoned Chalice" as there was between the "pitch deadline" and the rejected "awarding" of the tender, then clearly BBC Worldwide must be having a real problem in finding another "suitable" mug...er...candidate. Maybe even their "old pal" might be finding it difficult to swallow the 100% pre-requesite?

    PS - I would imagine that GWx could now be free to offer re-sings of those cuts to any other potential client, anywhere, since they own the logo melody rights and clearly paid for the production of the"prototype cuts" out of their own pocket?

    PPS - can JM Admin perhaps add an extra Discussion Category especially for the Radio 2 Topic?
    i.e. to supplement "Jingles Yesterday!" and "Jingles Today!" we could have "Jingles TOMORROW!..or next month, or would Christmas do, or perhaps maybe next year sometime..." :-D
  • mbmb November 2011
    My personal view is that BBC Worldwide have little experience in this area and industry and whilst the theory and financials make sense actually delivering a package meeting those requirements that actually sounds good is a problem.

    Many people in BBC worldwide have come from advertising where the publishing rights reverting to the client upon production are fairly standard. So if you compose a theme for a chocolate bar or airline the brand as part of the deal gets the publishing rights. The agency get the fee for composition and production and that’s it. That’s the way advertising has been moving for several years.

    It is interesting that Mcasso come from this advertising industry heritage and therefore it is not so dissimilar from the standard terms of production used in advertising.

    The problem as we all know is that the “Jingle” industry works on a different financial model and at best the margin on production is tiny with no further payments the job is quite frankly not worth doing financially. The only benefit is to use as a loss leader ( by having the reputation for the company with jingles on Radio 2 ) I would suspect that there is an issue because the companies that would be in the running with proven track records JAM, TM, WB, Groove etc cannot easily adapt to this model or make money. We don’t know the production budget but if you have to write X number of jingles, compose, record and mix all in that budget do you make a huge loss or do you cut corners. Use less instrumentation, use less well know cheaper composers and produce the lowest price product you can in order to maintain any degree of profit margin. In that scenario why would JAM, Groove and others put their reputation on the line knowing that they only way they could deliver within budget is a poorer product.

    I’m not saying this is the case with the BBC local Radio package but whatever Len might think the creative team at Radio 2, with a package with an 18 year heritage, must be acutely aware of the quality required and I’m sure their preferred list of suppliers may be different to those with whom BBC worldwide could easily agree favorable commercial terms on the 100% model with only production being paid for.
    Whats to say that BBC worldwide didn't stroll up with thier list of preferred music suppliers and say "whats wrong with them- they write music for stuff they can do jingles".

    Mcasso may be happy to follow those terms but despite their limited foray in jingles would you take the risk of giving them such a globally important imaging project? They can’t demonstrate proven experience and clients in this sector that the regular names we all know can. Hence I can see why the issue may drag on. BBC Radio 2 have a priority of a package that sounds good and meets their requirements, BBC worldwide want to produce on the lowest possible production budget and maintain 100% of the rights.
  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    "BBC Radio 2 have a priority of a package that sounds good and meets their requirements,
    BBC worldwide want to produce on the lowest possible production budget and maintain 100% of the rights"

    To those who know about digital electronics & logic functions - thats an "Exclusive-OR", or simply, an oxymoron.

    Very succinctly summed-up Michael - and increasingly akin to many things in the UK today - the people now in charge of "doing things" often have a background or experience (if any...) only in something entirely different, and have no remote idea whatsoever of how to do what they are now tasked with; and those that DO are "not wanted on board".
  • WAVAWAVA November 2011
    LenGroat said:

    And the bottom line... is that Heart, Smooth, Real, et al are all so mundanely progammed for 'short attention span' listeners that Radio 2 has LITTLE competiton ~ so of course it's got a big audience!


    But that is an unfair comment as I understand the other brands don't have the same FM coverage as the BBC. You may need to correct me here but yes you have digital radio and Freeview, but that still doesn't equate to full nationwide coverage like the BBC. I'm sure if Heart had similar FM coverage they would be posting higher figures than 7.6 million listeners.

    With regards to the Groove pitch I can't say I like them but they are different. Can't see them working for any other station besides BBC Radio 2 however. I would really like to see what a Reelworld pitch to the BBC would sound like if they were approached.

  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    " I would really like to see what a Reelworld pitch to the BBC would sound like if they were approached".

    Yes, me too, and I'm sure many others.

    Since it was a "Request for Quote" (RFQ) style project I'm sure Reelworld (as with all the other big-name producers with worldwide reputations and solid track-records) will have looked at it, and submitted a demo/samples/pitch in February if they were seriously interested, rather than having to be "approached".

    Only once the contract gets "awarded", will we perhaps ever get to hear exactly WHO of the "countless" others decided it was not worth the candle (regardless of the prestige element) and didn't pitch at all, or who did try to but didn't "win" (if "winning" is the right word for a "no-win for the actual producer" deal that BBC Worldwide seems to be hell-bent on obtaining).

    Perhaps one day, demos will appear on the websites of several "well-known producers" of some new syndication cuts (perhaps re-sung with US call-letters...) of their "prototypes" presented to BBC-WW...and only BBC "insiders" might then be able to tell us "those were what the XYZ Company specially created for the Radio 2 project" but didn't get the contract.

    Only time will tell... (or a bl&&dy great leak from somewhere in the "process"....)

  • LenGroatLenGroat November 2011
    WIXY

    "the people now in charge of "doing things" often have a background or experience (if any...) only in something entirely different, and have no remote idea whatsoever of how to do what they are now tasked with; and those that DO are "not wanted on board"

    AGREED!

    .....and, speaking of:

    "bl**dy great leak"

    I am TOTALLY amazed that the BBC 'procurement' people did not think to add a 'CONFIDENTIALITY clause' to the agreements every company who submitted must surely have signed ? ! ?

    Having heard what they submitted, and the fact the BBC 'suits' were prepared to go with them I have little faith in the skills/decisions of either.

    And I wonder how many stations might think twice before dealing with such an INDISCRETE company?
  • mbmb November 2011
    I think you have a point Len, I sense that at some point someone reall p*****d off the Grove team who given the 18 year relationship I'm sure you will appreciate have a good relationship with Radio 2 and are involved in frequent smaller updates and projects.
    But I also think that the demos from and comment from any other players is going to be non existent. Often best to stay quiet and say nothing.
  • GrahamCollinsGrahamCollins November 2011
    If Reelworld pitch to the BBC it will sound like all their other packages ! - One jingle and 250 mixes of it. I jest but only slightly.

    Why are GWx so precious about the rights? I'm not aware that their R2 back catalogue has produced any great revenue for them in re-sings.

    I actually have fears that the BBC Northern Radio Dance Orchestra will be getting the call any day to knock out a few ditties to accompany a new set of sickly female read show openers......
  • wixy1360wixy1360 November 2011
    Nothing wrong with the Northern Dance Orchestra!

    Certainly their stuff for BBC Radios Manchester, Merseyside and Derby in the pre-ILR early days of BBC Locals were damn good for their time! And had better lyrics than most stuff today...
    "# ....News and opinions, both topical and witty, from Piccadilly Gardens in the heart of the city, This...is Radio Manchester,.....#" (repeat and fade....)
  • LenGroatLenGroat November 2011
    "Why are GWx so precious about the rights?"

    Easy ~ the PRS (Performing Right payments ) have to be logged for EVERY play of jingles and annually would add up to 100s of THOUSANDS of pounds for a national station.

    Even back in 1988 this would add up to (something like) £2000-8000 for a LOCAL station, divided between the writer of the music / writer of the lyric(s)

    The REAL MONEY from any jingle package is not in the making of it, but the composers 'performance rights'... and the 'publishers'. The BBC seem to want to 'publish' the work of a 'writer' who does not actually 'work' for them?

    This was also why I thought it might be interesting to know who 'wrote' the lyrics for the (cheesey) Chris Moyles jingles :-)
  • simon_t123simon_t123 November 2011
    Mr Moyles was credited with writing his own lyrics on Music 4 cuts from what I've previously read ? And there was fuss about him allegedly cashing in on the fact ...

    VERY interesting write up on the GWx site, some good cuts in there also, I know they may have been whipped up on the cheap for demo purposes but some of those cuts are almost good to air, perhaps not on R2 mind !!!

    Not sure if anyone downloaded the letter I uploaded from the BBC when asking for information about potential bidders for the BBC local package, the response was quite clear that they would say nothing, and as BBC Worldwide was a commercial entity, the BBC freedom of information requests would not apply ! They would not say anything about a pitch or a tender in relation to LR cuts, so I'm pretty sure not much information would be forthcoming about the R2 imaging tender ... Although the sums of money might be vastly different, perhaps the whole public tender process applies on orders over a couple of 'k' ;) I'm sure from memory the LR reply stated it was awarded to Mcasso directly by BBC Worldwide ...

    Not sure MCasso could step up to the plate for R2, although I think they've imaged 6music in the past (I stand to be corrected) and a seperate tender was running for 6M alongside the R2 tender ... The LR package has grown on me, it's slightly naff but equally infectious, but it's not of a quality fit for one of the market leading stations (albeit in a way it is a nationally used package !)

    Great thread, some great posts ... Maybe the beeb will get the hump about the GWx post and it will disappear ! Someone should dub those cuts off for posterity ;)

    I've got a really long demo of all the R2 stuff from 1997, it's about 20 mins long and features news & travel that were too urban & never used, if anyone wants a copy or for me to post a link nod or wink my way, easily done.

    And finally (phew) I think WB for the gig, they'll keep those recent show openers & pick of the pops cuts, they'll just get WB to add mainstream generics & maybe jock cuts, that's cost effective and suits their buying habits of recent years, agree with something Len said about the cost over time for all these productions, perhaps the odd one or two cuts won't need BBC Worldwide's involvement ? WB then or ... IQ Beats ??? The current(ish) Heart package works for me ;)
  • LenGroatLenGroat November 2011
    To go back to 'why are GWx so precious about their rights' read this section of their website statement:

    "We were able to work out the details that will grant them the right to continue to incorporate our Heritage Melody logo that we created back in 1997, for use in the next Radio 2 package. We are very proud of the work we have produced for Radio 2 over the last fifteen years and wish that we could have continued to do so for fifteen more, but at least our Heritage Melody logo will remain on the air"

    'Heritage Melody Logo' ? !

    It was said this week that 'cricket is no longer a game, but a business' : it looks like we can now also use that for radio jingles from Grooveworx?

    I don't recall any acidic comments from JAM when they lost the Radio 2 contract - but then again I think it's been clear all along that Jon is both a gentleman, talented writer and world authority on making jingles - for him it's always been a PASSION ~ and even back in 1975 his 'Priority One' demo had the line, 'boardroom tap dancing'.

    It seems that GWx are VERY into 'boardroom tap dancing', and now able to extract money from the Beeb JUST for the use of the 'Heritage Melody Logo' ? And even boast about it in their very indiscrete post!

    I do not recall having to licence the 'WABC' 'KIMN' 'WPLJ' or 'WYNY' logos when we ordered many of those station's old jingles for Trent FM and GEM-AM. So, why on earth are the BBC paying for a 7 note melody, when just by changing 2 notes they could get out of paying any fee? In any case the 4 syllables of 'Ray de o 2' are the same as hundreds of old jingles made over the decades.

    As the BBC were happy to change from the JAM Radio 2 logo after 20 years when they left them, they could just as easily change this time. It seems they are CLINGING to a 15 year old melody ~ the changing of a few notes is hardly going to lose them listeners, but WHAT is is costing?

    And let's NOT use this ridiculous, pretentious phrase 'Heritage Melody Logo' here on JM just because someone at GWx in California used it when they 'threw their rattle out of the pram'.
  • RobinBlamiresRobinBlamires November 2011
    JAM had at least 4 melody logos for Radio 2, during their reign on the BBC. The one based on WMGK, another on WMAL, and briefly KDKA, before the custom package in 1986.

    The fact is that the public, even as young as toddlers can sing the current one, and there would be at least some sort of reaction if it disappeared all of a sudden.
  • mbmb November 2011
    The brief for the new package did solicit that demos could be submitted with the current or new Radio 2 logo. I don't think there was any clinging but how did any new version stand up against the current one. If someone had come up with a killer logo they might have gone for it,

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